Hair Hero
Welcome to "Hair Hero," the ultimate podcast for hairstylists seeking inspiration, knowledge, and growth.
Join your host, Ryan Weeden, founder of the 8-figure brand Masters of Balayage, as he shares his journey from being flat broke to becoming massively successful, all through the power of hair.
Each week, Ryan engages in intimate conversations with industry leaders, icons, and trendsetters, uncovering their secrets to success and sharing actionable insights.
Tune in to elevate your craft, fuel your passion, and become the hero of your own hair journey. New episodes drop every week—don't miss out!
Hair Hero
Sacrificing It All For Hair (w/ Ben Brown)
Have you ever wondered how a left-handed hair cutter from Derbyshire, England, can transform the world of hairdressing? Join us for a captivating conversation with Ben Brown as he shares his unique journey and the distinctive elements that set his craft apart. Ben discusses everything from his unique accent to his methodical approach to hairdressing, revealing the technical precision and dedication required to master his art. We also delve into his dual role as an in-salon stylist and online educator, where his passion and resourcefulness shine through.
Transitioning from stylist to entrepreneur is no easy feat, and Ben's story is a testament to the challenges and sacrifices involved. As we explore the emotional rollercoaster of business ownership, we emphasize the importance of authenticity and creating meaningful resources, particularly those that cater to the needs of budding professionals. Reflecting on personal sacrifices and shifting priorities with age and family responsibilities, this episode provides a heartfelt look at the highs and lows of pursuing entrepreneurial dreams in the hair industry.
Our discussion takes a personal turn as we explore my own journey from an aspiring architect to a passionate salon owner and educator. From the initial allure of a prestigious career in architecture to discovering the vibrant world of hair salons, my story underscores the importance of perseverance and hard work. We tackle the challenges of balancing personal and professional responsibilities, the evolving landscape of social media, and the significance of maintaining industry credibility. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about dedication, sacrifice, and finding fulfillment in unexpected places.
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Thanks for you listening.
-Ryan
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Hey, what's going on everybody? I am excited today to talk to Ben Brown. This is this guy.
Speaker 1:I've been following him for a very long time and I'm sure you've you have to or you've seen his videos or his YouTube. He's just a hair cutter extraordinaire. I asked how he'd like to be introduced which I always do and he just says just introduce me, how you, how you see me, and and I just see him as somebody is. I'm today meeting you for the first time, really talking to you and talking to him, and he just is like the nicest person on the planet, exactly who I expected I would be talking to, Somebody that really cares about his craft, very passionate in what he does, and I was doing a little bit of digging and just looking into his different course offerings and how he has his own membership site and you know we have Masters Academy and I've been in the online digital space for quite a long time, so I can't wait to pick his brain and get to know who he is and how he ticks and why he does what he does. Welcome to our podcast today, Ben.
Speaker 2:Oh, Ryan, I'm thrilled to be thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1:I almost stuttered there's how excited, I am all right.
Speaker 2:I stutter all the time. By the way, that's a really nice introduction. So, uh, we're off to a great start, so thank you for that absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:It was when I listened to you talk to, not just today, but on videos and things too. I, I love, I just love accents. I love when I talk to somebody with an accent and are you, is it? Is it uh, 100 like united kingdom, or where exactly are you from?
Speaker 2:yes, I am born and bred in quite a small uh city called derby uh in the east midlands of england. So I live in derbyshire at the moment. It's just slightly out of the main city, uh, but yeah, I love, I'm big, you know, a big fan of it. It's where I was born and bred and, yeah, the accent isn't traditionally local the accent. There's a lot of farmers around this area so the accent, my accent, is kind of not exactly the true Derbyshire accent, but um, but I've got it, it is what it is, it's the way I speak now.
Speaker 1:So, and thank you, yeah, I love, I love an accent as well, I, I love to, I love to butcher myself too, especially when I've had a few cocktails and I'm like, oh, let me talk to my talk a little.
Speaker 2:Harry potter, you do find that it's either harry potter or peaky blinders you find that people will imitate one or the other, so they'll either go for arthur shelby or they'll go for harry potter. So, uh, it's always always exciting to know which one. So, but no, I I love it. I absolutely love. I'm the same. You know, if I'm in ireland, I love the irish accent and, uh, I always get a. I always really get a good kick out of a good accent. So I'm the same awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:And sometimes it's hard to to pick, especially if somebody's been in different, lived in different areas. I know that south, uh, I have a buddy, a good friend of mine who's, who lives in the uk, but he is actually from south africa, so so he's got this, this blend, and it's and it's also very cool. And sometimes it's like, is it a bit australian or where exactly is it from? But then you learn, instead of they say no or however, they say, their nose yeah at australia, like oh, he's definitely from australia. Um, we're really going off on the accents here. So so, ben, um, you're a left-handed hair cutter, right?
Speaker 2:that's correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah I guess you've always been left-handed. You decided to start cutting and cutting is your passion, I would assume, because you've got loads of cutting videos, cutting training you do in salon education, you do online education. You and I have about the same amount of YouTube followers I saw, which is which is cool.
Speaker 2:I'm flattered with that. I mean it's a tricky one, youtube, but I think it is. It's really interesting because I've admired what you do for a long time. What Masters of Allergy is, and I've always? I mean there are a few.
Speaker 2:Like I said to you beforehand, I think what you have achieved with your company and the team and all your wife and everything that's put into it, is very singular. You know, I struggle to find a comparison and I find that, being somebody that is so far down the line from what you've achieved, I find what you've done incredibly inspiring. So I'm very inspired by any craft, I suppose, that is respected and carried out well. And in my area. You know I have no natural skills in hairdressing at all, but I've always been able to work hard and I've always been able to. I'm quite resourceful, you know. If I get it wrong, I can guarantee I'll learn how to get it right.
Speaker 2:And ultimately, the cutting side of things is quite cathartic to me because there's a very specific way you can work around a haircut, which is a technical way, and a technical way means that there's a definite yes and a definite no. Of course you can elaborate, of course that's what creates a personality within, or a style or or what makes it the client's haircut. But I'm very, very drawn to the pragmatic sense of the mechanical sense, if you will, of how a haircut works, and that's probably what got me, helped me, to elevate my craft, I suppose I think we share some similarities there too, where you said you have.
Speaker 1:You said you had no natural ability to cut hair right or with hair. I'm exactly the same way. I kind of fell into the profession after trying a bunch of other careers and and and just finally having somebody push me and just saying, hey, have you ever tried this? You just have. You've tried a lot of other things. Try hair.
Speaker 1:I'm like me, doing hair. I guess let's just do something else so I can cross that off my list while I'm trying to find myself and got into it. And then I realized that I have this, which you probably do too this great blend between our right brain and left brain, where I'm very creative. We have to be in our field to have a certain degree of creativity. But then also I have this there's also this strategic part of my brain too, where if I see a skill, I can kind of break it down, deconstruct it, it and then find a way through to achieve a creative haircut by using those type of that, that pragmatic approach to it, by, like with a system, systematically to achieve something while being creative along the way, and I think it's a fantastic blend and it sounds like that's kind of the way you work as well I think you put that in in a really good.
Speaker 2:I think the. The listeners will really get that, because there has to be a blend of. You can't break the rules until you know the rules, which I believe anthony moscolo said. So you have to kind of know the, the fundamentals, but then of course the innovation and the creativity is what will keep you, uh, moving forward. I think if you just keep playing the same seven songs all day you know you're going to get bored.
Speaker 2:But if you start to look and broaden your horizons which is what I advise anyone to do in any craft is to learn from, as I, I actually love it when, uh, when somebody doesn't like, let's say, they're kind of online or on social media and they're saying I don't agree with this, I think that's wrong. I actually quite like that because that means that from their perspective if I can see it from their perspective I'm going to learn more and I actually love to learn just as much as I like to teach. So I love to learn from other people. I love that. I love it if someone has a different way of doing it to me. If anything, I want to learn from them. You know, I certainly wouldn't be happy if everybody cut a bob the same way as me. Let's say, I see people working with high tension, some working with low tension, some, you know, working through the comb, some working flat to the skin and absolutely in every haircut there's going to be that level of contrast and that level, and everyone's going to be have a degree of being right and I think, like, like, if, if two people understand the haircut 80, that 20 that they both understand differently is what I would search for in the other person.
Speaker 2:I'm always keen to learn and I think that the reason I teach I say this all the time, but it's very true the reason I teach is because I love to learn. It's not because I'm trying to showcase a skill that I've earned over time. To showcase a skill that I've I've earned over time. It's not because, you know, I've got this huge ego that needs massaging and I do it through like showing people how good I perceive my work to be. It's because I I kind of respect the fact that it's taken me a long time to learn these skills and I've got a consumer perspective of education, because I had to retrain myself, use education to improve myself and really change my life you know, change my life totally from a salon owner about $50,000 in debt, had to close my business and then ended up pursuing a career in what I'm doing now.
Speaker 1:So I managed to cover about nine subjects I know, I know, and I had a question formed at the beginning of each one. During all those you touched on so many incredible things. One of the first things that I was thinking is that you're saying you don't want to play the same seven songs over and over and over again. You're going to get bored, right? That's why it's good to have that creative side of our brain to succeed and innovate. But then the opposite can be said too. We don't always wake up and go to the salon or go to work inspired. So that's where that right brain comes in handy, where we can just be systematic, be kind of robotic to carry us through those lulls, if you will.
Speaker 2:Very true, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you talked about being a salon owner and I started I smiled and I was kind of giggled to myself and I'm like, yeah, I had a salon too, man, and it just was not for me. It was not for me at all. I just didn't. I don't know if you enjoyed it or didn't enjoy it or what happened there, but I just know that a lot of times we open up a salon because we feel the industry, which I think our minds have to shift around that you don't have to own a salon to be massively successful. In fact, if you own a salon, you need to own a salon because you want to own a salon, not because you want to make more money. You can make more money, but it's a beast.
Speaker 2:I mean I think I was incredibly naive with with it. I think I was naive with the amount of time the business needed. I mean, I think, like you're gonna open a salon, it's because you you want to get more into the business side of the hairdressing industry, because then obviously that's where you can put those skills into into play, where you're organizing, managing and obviously leadership is obviously emotional and manage managing. And obviously leadership is obviously emotional and manage it and obviously managing is structural. So it's you know you can start to break all that into your own business.
Speaker 2:Personally, I just ran it all heart no head ended up after six years I never really earned any money. You know I was earning more money where I was before as a stylist on the floor, without the stress or pressure. And you are right, there are some days I wake up and I envy somebody who can clock in and clock out and not have to think about, you know, tax, not have to think about dealing with the entrepreneurial side of you. Constantly got to be thinking forward, thinking how tiring that can be. And I wouldn't say that's a natural thing for me either. I wouldn't say I'm naturally, um, you know, I wouldn't say I was a natural entrepreneur at all. Uh, I think there are things I have to work on, definitely, um.
Speaker 2:But I think what I always do um, always do is whenever I get a bit of fog with where I'm going or how I'm going to achieve you know how am I going to get that house in the countryside for my wife and daughter? You know how am I going to go to Disneyland next year? I always go back to basics. I always write something for me, always. If it's a new program, I write it for me because would I buy it? Would I? If it's a new program, I write it for me because would I buy it? Would I? Would I like I? If I did hair, if I colored hair, I would definitely have bought all your products. You know, I definitely would have been on your classes same and I say the same thing.
Speaker 1:I created it for who I wish I, what I wish I had when I was coming up yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:The person I was when I retrained, that's who I wrote my book for, that's who I started to film tutorials for, and I think I felt like the key thing was to always be authentic to myself. Where you know, like I, I would think would I cut my own? Would I pay me to cut my hair? You know, and I would love to cut my hair. I would love, would love it. I would love it, I would love it If I could take my head off and cut it. I would be so happy that I could do that. I think that's like my advice to any educator has always been start with yourself and don't worry if that screen's blank. It's going to be blank for a bit. Write, like you just said. Write something that you needed back when and where. And you know like I, I struggled to find theory for hair cutting right.
Speaker 2:You know I struggled to find I could find a creative haircut, I could find a shag, I could find all these haircuts, but could I have someone explain, like, without any fluff or any extra stuff, could you just explain a convex layer or con a concave layer? And yet there's loads of tutorials that say they're going to explain that and when I watch them I'd be like I, I still I'm no clearer. So my goal was always to take away the guesswork. You know, it was to make it simple, but to make it powerful. You know, and would it have given me something? And the majority of what I teach, what, the majority of what I set out to do, is to keep it simple and to make it powerful. You know, and if you know, if I feel it's getting too diffused, then I think, well, we've clearly gone off off the off the reservation.
Speaker 2:So to speak this yeah um, but no, that's, that's exactly what it is. I start with me first would I buy it. Yeah, then we'll move forward with it right.
Speaker 1:I think that's, that's how you got to create what you're, what you're passionate about. I think a lot of, again, misconceptions of when people are creating products whether it's, uh, hair cutting courses or things they're they're trying to please the masses. Yes, and yes, we got to give people what want, but if it's not inspired within you, if it's not something that you would want to take or learn, you're not going to have that kind of fuel behind it that's going to last the course of, of, uh, the entire course, or or months, or it's going to die off. It's going to be very ephemeral.
Speaker 2:If that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you gotta be, you gotta do it. Imagine who you were. Be who you were when you, when you were young. You know who you needed when you were young. And I just think too, if I could go back and take a course like I took, I could shave years off getting to where.
Speaker 1:I am now to where I am now, yeah, yeah, and I just would dive in with with all that hard work that I, when I had all that energy 20 years ago that I don't have now because I've got kids of my own and and, uh, wife and it's just. Yeah. You talked about disneyland. Disneyland is a cheap man. Those, those vacations, they, they are. They're not, uh, they're not cheap in taking care of our kids and we have different priorities now. Um, which is which is? It changes everything.
Speaker 1:If I could go back with that energy that I had in my twenties, I just think about, oh, my gosh, what would I do? It was funny. Somebody I was on whose podcast recently? Uh, maybe Elizabeth Faye. I might've been talking to her and she said she, I think she asked me a question at the end of the podcast and she said yeah, I like to ask my guests if you could go back and and do something differently, what would you do, you know, 20 years ago or or whatever it was? You know, if you go back 10, maybe it was 10 years from now, what would you do?
Speaker 2:it was funny because I just said I'd invest in bitcoin. Yeah, you know, just just something, that that was kind of like I guess how much easier would life be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, if I had just known about that earlier. Uh, no, but but you, it seemed you're, you're a family man, which it sounds, yeah, amazing. Um, I totally understand that and I feel like you and I are kind of like brothers in a way. You guys are. We seem very similar to each other just from chatting with you, and it's very, very cool. I'm curious when you got into hair, what age were you?
Speaker 2:I was 16, I did, I was, I will. Actually, I didn't start straight away, so I left school at 16. So in the uk you leave school, uh, back then, uh, which was 1996, a long time ago. I'm 44, uh, as we sit here now and ultimately I wanted to be an architect. That was this.
Speaker 2:I was chasing like a status job, you know, and I thought there's going to be some money in architecture. I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to get a cool briefcase and I'm going to be important. I get a business card and I didn't enjoy it one bit. And my sister was working part-time in a hair salon and I was after a part-time job. I had no money coming in and obviously I wanted to start going out and things had no money. So I got this part-time job in a salon and I've never really seen anything like it before.
Speaker 2:I've never seen people like that, the, the, the energy of the men, uh, the, the, the charisma, the of the whole area, how everyone was dressed, um, the atmosphere and the. And you know, I've never really been around that before. I never really seen men like that. I'm a, I'm a working class person, that's where I grew up, so you never really saw men dressed like that, acting like that, you know, and it was, and it was an incredible atmosphere and the only natural attribute I brought to my job was the only thing I've ever done where I was able to rise above others was my work rate. You know my output no natural skills can't draw, can't play music, can't sing, can't dance, but you know I, I will always work incredibly hard and see a task to its completion. Uh, no moaning, I thrive on it. Actually, I, I it my self-esteem's higher when I've put in, as we say in England.
Speaker 2:We put a shift in and ultimately I started working in a hair salon and it was just a very natural thing. What was natural about it was the service. I enjoyed service. I never struggled to talk to the clients. I never struggled with the work. I never moaned, I didn't care. I didn't see any indignity in cleaning floors or cleaning toilets. I felt I was part of the theater of the company. I felt like the stylist. The senior stylist skill base was at a level where they brought in all the money and I thought, well, they haven't got the time to make sure the toilet roll is there for the client, that the towels are neat. But that's the standard and I could be like I can work that standard and I felt like being a senior stylist wasn't a price, it was an attitude and a standard and I've always been a senior stylist the second I was able, the second I was released from my shackles because I was so ready for it. Um, but I've jumped ahead of it.
Speaker 2:Essentially, I did a year of architecture before I was offered a full-time apprenticeship. Where I was, I'd grabbed it both hands. Everyone in my family was kind of uh, you know, very supportive. Uh, you know, is quitting architecture to do hair? But no one ever even mentioned it. They were just like, well, if you want to do that, you've got one life to live very supportive. So I and I felt like I'm in a job where I could be who I want to be. I can do anything I want to do if I only apply myself and that wasn't a problem for me. You know that was never an issue for me. So I really worked incredibly hard and rose to the ranks quickly and and hungrily, you know really became a very busy stylist.
Speaker 2:But this is where it got interesting for me, because I thought I was a fantastic hairdresser because I was always fully booked, you know I'd be every target given me and I prided myself on it. I was. I wouldn't take holidays hardly ever. I was completely infatuated with this job and this career when I was 29,. I've been married for almost 20 years and when I was 29, my wife and I had our daughter. And everything changes then because you immediately take stock of your life, I think, and you analyze it as to say, well, how I've always wanted Ryan. Um, like a farmhouse in the countryside with a little bit of land, no neighbors, that's my heaven, that's what I do, it all for, um, you know, nothing else really gets a fire under me. But that thought of that, that this is what I've achieved, you know, it's what me and my wife have achieved together.
Speaker 2:And you know I would say that I immediately thought owning a salon was the way, because my boss was very rich and successful and he owned four salons, but he was a different breed to me. He was so much better than me and I didn't realize how good he was until I left and I put my own salon. You know, I didn't realize how much he did until I left and I put my own salon. I didn't realize how much he did. I put my own salon absolute nightmare, had no money, no receptionist, can't afford this. Can't afford that Absolute nightmare. Hell on toast. Hated it, absolutely hated it. Struggled through it for six years and in the end the tax man just comes up to you. He's giving you enough chances and something has to happen. And we closed and I did fail. There's absolutely no question about it. I did fail. But there's no way I know if I'm a failure.
Speaker 2:I say this joke quite often when I tell this story, ryan, and I say you know, if I was to race against Usain Bolt and I lost against Usain Bolt, no one would go. Well, that's a massive failure on your part. I can't believe you didn't beat Usain in a sprint. Owning a salon was the wrong race, just as the Usain Bolt analogy is ridiculous. I'm in the right race now. You know what I do now feels I don't struggle, um with things like I used to. You know I don't. I I'm so relieved.
Speaker 2:You said the energy thing because, my god, I feel the difference in energy. You know, my goodness, me like, um the energy I had in my 20s and my my like late teens. I was like a firecracker. But now I feel like after 4 pm I'm ready for a hot milky drink and I lie down. So, um, you know. But. But ultimately I sort of very quickly went through that.
Speaker 2:But I I'm where. I am not because of any God-given talent. I'm where I am is just, you know, a hairdresser that loves what they do and has worked hard for every opportunity they've got and when they've been given an opportunity, I've not always found myself full of courage, you know, about to work on stage in front of lots of people. I've not always found a natural, um, confidence, uh, what I? But you know, I always feel if I'm nervous, I'll do it nervous. If I'm scared, I'll do it scared. If I'm worried, I'll do it worried. But I'm not going to not do it, you know. And and what I found is that retaining a sense of credibility to me only allows me to a haircut.
Speaker 2:The core of what I love doing is precision cutting and I always try to build my work around that. Whenever I try and do something really edgy and crazy, it never works, you know, because I'm chasing the hashtag, as I say. But I do have what helps me with my job. What I feel helps me is I do have a consumer perspective because I did retrain myself when I was 34. So I've used education like everybody else, like people who use our education sites I will we were those people at one point which enables us to have this perspective of what did we like, what didn't we like. You know what. What am I looking for from this tutorial? You know? Explain to me the core thing I'm going to take away from this, you know and, and then I'll look for it.
Speaker 1:You know I love it I love that usain bolt analogy there, that that you were just running the wrong race yeah, I never thought about it that way before. When I look at the industry today as a whole and of course this is for fear of making any kind of blanket statement, but, um, I I see a few things. And of course, when I say I see things, I see things on social media that people are talking about and boasting, and of course, everybody's a coach now, everybody's a trainer.
Speaker 1:Everybody's got something to say, that's yeah this is right or that's wrong, and you said that earlier too, and I agree there is no right or wrong. It's like what's going to help you achieve your goal faster. What's the shortcut? That's what we need to be teaching. But when we look at the industry as a whole, I feel what's lost is that desire to take these opportunities, to work really hard, for fear of even if it's doing something for free, just to be part of an experience, to learn from it. To learn from it. When you look at even your students, when you, when you look at people on instagram, do you think that that people that are posting are missing the mark? Uh, or they're just trying to find their place in what race they should be in? What would?
Speaker 2:be your advice for somebody that's like are we lost?
Speaker 1:is it like a lost kind of a generation? Right now I'm I don't know what's happening I think.
Speaker 2:I think that, um, I think we always have to be very careful of, like, um, chasing the blue tick or the followers. I think it's a lot of the people like who? Some people that I think are the world's greatest hair cutters uh, don't have huge, huge followers, but they have huge amounts of credibility within the industry. So I would say I think there's room for all of us. I would just say that for me, I found hard work. For me, I love it. It massively gives me a huge boost of self-esteem. Uh, I feel that I respond to something like that, like so you know, I find it difficult. I think I have to manage expectations.
Speaker 2:Quite frequently, people will watch you cut a graduated bob, let's say a technical haircut. That's been here before me, it'll be here here after me and it's taken me, let's say, 1,000 hours of practice to get anywhere near the mark on it. They watch me do it. They do it once, and when it's not exactly like mine, you know, there's a sense of well, I don't think I can cut hair. You know, and I'm always very quick to say to give this response to that, I always say that you've just watched me cut that haircut, but you didn't watch the first time I cut it. You've never seen my first time of cutting that haircut. You didn't see my 10th time, my 50th time or my 100th time. You've seen probably my 5,000th time. Let's say hypothetically, I should be good at it. I'm not good at it because I possess a skill you don't. I possess hours of practice that you don't. That's the difference, that's that's the disparity, right there.
Speaker 2:And what what I loved about that was is that I can change that in a month. You know, I could do eight hours of practice a week if you will. 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, you know, and I immediately you can think of those, because I think if someone said you get 50 hours on one task and you you sort of not master it but you get better at it, there was some sort of thing that that spurred me on, because I remember every day after work, when I was retraining myself, every single day after work, I did the same haircut that graduated Bob. So I wanted to do it for 100 days without stopping and I wanted to film it every day so that I could one watch the film back to critique it, to help me improve for day two.
Speaker 2:What are my list of errors from day one after day two. I need to see that list smaller, because then if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. So then the next thing would be that I could see the first video and the last video and there should be some huge difference between them. But how many people would do that a hundred days without?
Speaker 2:stopping you know you measure your success by what you're prepared to sacrifice to achieve it. You know, and I want my success a lot more than I want anything else. You know I'm working. I think being a family person is a big deal, because your goals are no longer for you, and when they're only for you, we can be selfish with that. Think, ryan. We could say you know what? I can't, I don't want it enough, I need a day off. You can talk yourself into it, you know. But when it's not for you, when it's for your daughter or your wife, the center of your universe there's suddenly a different gear. You find a whole other gear where when you're tired, you'll still keep working when you're. When.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know like I mean some, some of the travel we have to do. If people think it's like this, like, like acting like 50 cent, driving up to a private plane, that's not nothing. You don't see the hours in an airport, the little coach seat where I'm far too big for the seat, I mean squashed into it, you know, and and it's it, and it's all a privilege. It's all a privilege. You can't have light without shade. But it's unrealistic to think that you're going to be doing exactly the same work as someone who's been through what they've needed to go through to get where they want to get. You do it once and you go. Well, I can't do it.
Speaker 1:The easiest thing is quitting, you know, right, right you don't see the, the travel woes that go into the, the hard work that that we, that we do and that traveling influencers and educators do. Like you're saying, it's not, we don't have the private planes, we don't. You don't see the. The 4 am pickups they go to the airports.
Speaker 1:You could wait in a long tsa line. If you have tsa, yeah, you don't. The lost luggage, the gosh, the list goes on. You know, trying to find a clean bathroom in an airport this a lot, a lot of things that that add up over the years and just the jet lag yeah, yeah and and leaving your family.
Speaker 1:You know it's, it's gosh. I love being around my kids and, yeah, it's so nice to have a break every now and then. But it's very true that you know, once they go to sleep even if it's been a hard day with them once they're asleep you kind of miss them a little bit yeah, they're sleeping.
Speaker 2:I remember that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and times when I've had to travel for multiple days at a time. I mean you get really bummed if you can't FaceTime them every day, if something comes up, or they went to bed early, or just the schedules didn't coordinate itself, and it really as a parent it affects you.
Speaker 2:It's really hard leaving as well. Yeah, yeah, Like sometimes when you've got to go, I did about 20 days away a couple of years ago. I said I'd never do that again. It's a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really, really was, and it was just before Christmas, but it was a really really kind of big opportunity. You know it's a difficult one, because then you just feel very guilty, like you've put an opportunity ahead of the time. The jobs will come and go, but the time won't, um. But at the same time that enabled me to take my family to disney world in florida and, like I, we've been twice now, so once at christmas, once at halloween. So I I always say it's never about anything ostentatious, it's about the memories.
Speaker 2:So like we've all we know what it's like to be there christmas morning, disney now those things wouldn't come if I wasn't in a car at 2 am every night, right you? Know, yeah, they're I'm quite happy to trade that you know, I'm happy to trade.
Speaker 2:You got to be. I think if you are going to do a lot of traveling as an educator, you've got to forget about being comfortable. You've just got to be quite happy to be on your feet a lot. And like I think I was laughing to the decks I was in Ireland and there was this really nice couple from America there and they couldn't believe how polite the airport staff are and, to be fair, in America they're terrifying. You know that in TSA. They're pretty scary, put your back down.
Speaker 1:Laptops out, shoes off, shoes off, just relax.
Speaker 2:But no, I'm going to be in America a couple of times, or three more times this year, which is amazing, and I go to Puerto Rico. Um, I go to Ireland this weekend, next weekend I'm in Puerto Rico so and each one of those traveling days will be 29 hours wow you've got to have an eight hour, not, I think it's nine hour, jet um time difference.
Speaker 2:So you know you have. And then what I realized, ryan and I know you're the same and I've got a story about a really good story about you. In a sec I'm just going to share a really, really positive one um.
Speaker 1:I like positive stories that we know that we've got to perform.
Speaker 2:We we know that they've not hired us for our boyish good looks, that we're there to perform and deliver something significant. Okay, and I know that any investment made they need a return on, so I'm always very focused on that. But I remember you did something, uh, recently, might have been last year, and it was probably at what? Maybe like orlando or something like that and jacob khan, who's an amazing friend of mine and hands down, one of the best educators going. Jacob Kahn, he doesn't really, you know he doesn't say nothing for nothing. You know he doesn't get impressed easy and he was blown away by what you did. It was like this huge auditorium it was absolutely packed of people wanting to see you who had been part of Masters of Balliard and were part of that community, part of Mob, and that you literally couldn't get in the room and he just said it was one of the single most impressive things he's seen.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, was that at a hair show?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think it was. Maybe it was like a private class.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he said it was like a private class. Okay, yeah, but he said it was. It was just so impressive, that's what. And I and I said to him, though, that anything you come across with from mob, you often do stop and look at it and go how clever. How has he thought of that before me again? You know, and it's, um, like I said, it's very singular. You know it's very singular, and we and I've had the privilege of teaching a college, a school in america that you taught at, and they've they've run out like one of your programs and mine kind of not alongside, but they've they've ran both, and you know their their work is and one of their team who's done your course is just finalized.
Speaker 1:Oh, tg, tg right. Yeah, tg, tg Connected Right.
Speaker 2:Matt and Dan, father and son, yeah, they're such great guys, they're such great guys and one of their guys, dayla, who did your program, was just finalized in the 100 best you know, the behind the chair 100, top 100 students. Her work, her balayage was ranked in the top 100.
Speaker 1:Incredible.
Speaker 2:So you see, it's just although I know this is supposed to be about me, I also, you know, chatting to you.
Speaker 1:I don't mind stories about me, especially when they're good.
Speaker 2:I really was looking forward to even as a hair cutter, like I look at it and think that is really clever how it's done, incredibly inviting even as a hair cutter, like I look at it and think that is really clever how it's done. Uh, incredibly inviting, uh, very, very uh, consumer friendly and um, and to have jacob. You know jacob khan, he knows what it's like to work in front of an audience. I've been very honored to work on stage with jacob uh long beach and you know, and he he's a fantastic, fantastic showman as well as he's so natural yeah, he's probably one of the funniest people I've ever met in in ever as well yeah
Speaker 1:he's such a funny guy it's funny because we've had him on our hero stage several times and you never know what's going to come out of his mouth. At times you're just like, oh gosh, what's the crowd reaction to? That is it? Is it going over? Well, I remember one of the funniest things he did. It's so inappropriate, it was funny and you know he's the first one that'll admit half the stuff he does is inappropriate, but he stands behind and it's just. It's just funny because he says it. If I had said it, a whole different cancel culture kind of thing, right.
Speaker 1:But he'll say, uh, during our one of our first heroes, that was, that was right after covid. Um, it was like the first time we were allowed to have events again and he was there, he was part of it and we were all kind of fast. You know, good portion of the people are in masks, some of them aren't, and he just like you know he's talking about kobe. He's like all right, everybody, you know, look at the person next to you and cough on him. We're all in this together we're just like and that's how we started this segment.
Speaker 1:We're just like, oh geez, what so? So we would have to have, like have debriefs with him and his team. So is there any jokes that you possibly want to say that can just run them by us a little bit in advance so that we can make sure it's going to fit with what we're trying to get across. But he's such a great person and we love working with him and, gosh, he is quite the talent. Yeah, just to be that natural and be great at what he does and just that. Also have that kind of unfiltered like I want to help you. But I'm also going to be extremely blunt, honest with you as well, especially the way he reacts to haters.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:I wish, I wish, I wish I think a lot of us wish we had the courage to respond to haters that way.
Speaker 2:You know I've done that before. Delete and block them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've deleted and blocked too, and occasionally I have responded in a kind of a snarky way and then I was worried about what they would say back. So I feel like he just doesn't have that part of his brain where he worries about it.
Speaker 2:He says quite brutal things as well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We love you, jacob. Um, yeah, so. So you, in your career, you've you own a salon. That didn't go that great for you and you learned that was not the race to be in. And then, how long ago did you start doing your own education? You've probably been educating for a long time to people, but as far as like paid education in salon trainings, you are coming to the us to to train, I would assume, to to educate, to be part of a show or something, and then you have your online training. I know that's that's a lot, but when did you start to see like, hey, this is where I need to be, this is the race, this is going to get me that house in the countryside where my family can live peacefully I mean, I mean the way I wanted to achieve that has changed so many times, uh, but I've never given up on it, but I've had to keep pivoting.
Speaker 2:But it was probably 2016. I'd been retraining for a couple years and then I started to. I did, I auditioned for this um, this incentive from L'Oreal called the ID artist program. I'm not sure if anyone's familiar with that, but you essentially get a two-year mentoring program and it was the first time I'd ever had to like present my work in front of industry professionals and I somehow managed to get on the program anyway. Then he selected like four from each region and I managed to get in.
Speaker 2:And then I was in this room full of people that I'd read about from sounds I'd read about, and everything was a lot more human than I thought it was going to be. It wasn't as out of I'm not saying this because I think my skills were good, far from it. It wasn't an unreachable goal, because they were like talking. They put their shoes on one at a time, like I do. You know, there was nothing out of this world where I felt like I can't achieve that. You know, I need a genie out of a lamp to achieve that. Everything can come and, through a lot of repetition and hard work, it it's. It's going to come slow, but it will come and I don't mind that. I don't mind the heart. I like the heart, I'm built for that, you know.
Speaker 2:And then I ran into a lot of money, trouble around to the same sort of time maybe, uh, with tax and things. I'll be totally honest with you, you know, just miss ran my business and I've got no excuses. I don't look for them either. I'm not a victim, it is just what it is, um, but ultimately I'm. I started to have because I was just to share, like when I was retraining, I filmed myself a lot and I continued that after the 100 days and I would eventually start to post videos of my efforts and that sort of started building my social media because it appeared that with cutting, people responded very much to the technique. You know they responded very much to the cutting videos back then. Now, obviously, we have the reels and things. We've had to pivot thousands of times Every time you think you're getting it right. Instagram will change something for you.
Speaker 2:But ultimately, you know, when my business closed which was November 2017, you know, I obviously focused on my education. I sort of said the business has failed. I came out and did like a face, a Facebook live, and I just said I just want to be really honest and transparent. It has actually failed. It has. I'm not going to try to say that I've had a change of heart or anything. Uh, no, none of that. I've done a bad job and it's failed and as a result of that, I'm really unhappy and I would like to stop doing whatever makes me unhappy and I'm going to go and pursue my career in education. The name BB Education actually came from people laughing at me who just couldn't see it. You'd never been so soon trained, you never worked for a major company and you're going to be an international educator. Well, I'm joking, but my goal was to never be international.
Speaker 2:my goal was just to be a technically very proficient hair cutter. That was the initial goal. And then obviously I you know, um, when I posted this, this video, obviously that got shared a lot. It wasn't like I planned it, but obviously that got me a lot of buzz around my education company. And then I would get emails oh, how much would it be for you to come to our salon? I had no idea what to charge people. So you'd say, like I don't know, like $600 or something. And obviously then my business grew.
Speaker 2:And then the reason I created online education in 2018, that's when we launched that, and I did that because I learned a lot from online tutorials. I quite liked it. I saw it as such an efficient method, an efficient delivery of the information. I could watch it in between clients. If I felt a bit dry or I felt like I didn't quite have the idea nailed on, I'd watch something quick. So I loved online education. I've never seen it as a substitute for a hands-on class, but I think it's a great accompaniment, absolutely. So I launched that because it was something that I felt I had a great insight into Didn't have a lot of success for the first two years, of course, in 2020, what happened? We're in lockdown. So I had a digital online product ready with about 100 tutorials ready. Can you imagine how lucky that is to have that ready to go. I've had it for two years.
Speaker 1:I know how lucky that is, because I started mine in 2017 and in 2020 was one of my best online years. Yeah, I mean, it was pretty amazing, yeah it.
Speaker 2:But then obviously now it's, you know, different, because one, there's a lot more opportunity for people like I had to spend a lot of money on the website.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you're aware of that as well to have all the things, whereas now you can just get a subscription through Instagram or a private page on Facebook. So, you know, and that's great, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that it's not like it was in 2020 anymore, but I've always pursued creating something, like we said before. Um, you know, my cutting classes core and evolve they're the two main things I teach, are all classes. I would go on, you know, but I, I, I just to have a lot of my inspiration is very industry centered. I'm very inspired by, like, what you've achieved. Uh, there's many hairdressers, there's huge amounts of hairdressers that I find incredibly inspirational. Uh, and I think that's that's one of the nicest things about our industry and having social media for our industry is that I'm able to see what stanley lau is doing in china or lindell salmon's doing in australia, know, or Javier Romero in Mexico, you know.
Speaker 2:So you, straight away at night, sit there in bed, have a little scroll through, see a lot of abusive comments about my weight. Delete, block, delete, block, delete block. And someone asked me the day this is why doesn't it bother you? And someone's just like totally tearing apart your physical appearance like that? Well, it's very simple. Nobody great does that? You's very simple. Nobody great does that. You know, nobody great would do that. So I'm not particularly gonna waste my minutes that I've got, you know, worrying about those things the whole.
Speaker 1:Hurt people, hurt people kind of a philosophy, right? Yeah, I mean, who would actually take the time to do that, unless they just kind of are projecting or hate themselves? They, they want to take the focus away from their own internal demoralization, I guess yeah yeah sad that we have to face that.
Speaker 1:No, they're not having a good time. No, life is not not their friend right now. You know, at that given moment, yeah, yeah, there's no need for the haters, it's none, and I love the way you were just able to just like, you know, next kind of next, next, delete, block, next, delete, block, next. Yeah, thankfully, that's available to us. When I think about what celebrities, though, must go through on the daily, I was recently. I mean, justin timberlake went through something else with the.
Speaker 1:He's got a dwi and it's, you know, for somebody that has done so many great things. But then of course he's got. We all have our flaws. We're human, man, man, man, man. It's just like it's just constant. People just look for this chance to jump on anything they can to try to tear somebody else down. Like where does the? Why is that fun? That that shouldn't be fun. Go, do something with your life. Do something positive, I mean they. I think of how great our world would be if we just all focused on the beauty and the sunshine and helping other people, supporting other people, being there to motivate, to inspire, instead of trying to tear others down.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'd never get any satisfaction out of doing that. You know, I've never, thankfully, I've never been in a situation where I've had a really vicious argument with someone or a physical side of things, anything like that, and I just don't see what you take away from that. You know, that's personally, just me. I think that it would really affect me if I, if I knew I'd really done something horrible to somebody. I think it would. It would be horrendous, I would struggle to live myself. It would be a really bad thing. I wouldn't, I certainly wouldn't like it.
Speaker 2:And just in Timberlake, I mean I because I'm. I just feel now I'm sort of losing touch with all what's current, sure, in music, wise especially, and, um, you know, I know it's bad when I can't spell people's names anymore, so they'll go like this person's called tiger and I'm thinking, okay, t-i-g-e-r, no, t-y-g-a, I'm like, right, okay, I don't know what's going on, I don't know what's happening, right, right, we have a lot of young people on our team and even in the office here, and but I'm talking about putting on music or something.
Speaker 1:I'm pulling up. These bands that are either obscure it's just people's choice of music are so different these days that it's not just like you know, not everybody likes the rolling stones or even knows who they are or grunge bands or emo or whatever. You whatever's nostalgic to us might be something that nobody, somebody else is like, never even possibly heard of. It's just, it's bizarre, man, the older we get, the older we get. It's just it's. It's almost like you. Just, I'm to a point right now where it's like I don't really care what you, what you do or what you believe in. I don't care if you think the earth is flat, it's great for you, like, whatever. Just, are you a nice person? That's all I care about. Are you cool? Are you nice? I don't care what you believe in, I don't care if you're left or right. Are you nice?
Speaker 2:I mean that's. I mean I, I was saying, if my's 14 now, and I was saying that I don't, really I don't want to have expectations of watch this for a living or any of those things, but I just hope, I just hope that we've guided her to be to, to be a good person, to be a good human being. You know to look for the good before you look for the bad. You know, uh, to not be quick, to don't be quick to anger, don't be quick to judge. You know I sometimes, uh, you know, like driving, I have to drive a lot and I, sometimes people just, you know, when they're just terrible drivers and they just cut you off and you're thinking, oh my god, this is terrible, um, you know, but I try, and I try to rationalize it and just thinking, let that go because there's no benefit to me, that's not going to push me further towards my goals. You know, in feeling negative and I'm about to go to a salon that I've paid harder money to have me with them and I take that responsibility, um, you know, very seriously, you know, I, when I was a salon owner, ryan, we, we spent money on having educators in and it was, it was a lot of money, you know, a lot more than I charge.
Speaker 2:And I remember, you know, thinking to myself they must be a millionaire. That educator must, you know, earn that money for one day's work and and you just assume then they earn that Monday to Friday. You don't realize that perhaps they're not going to earn that every day, but ultimately that's not the case. I know that's not the case. So when I go to a salon, I immediately draw on my experiences of hiring guest educators in, and you want them to. They are significant to us, you know, because without them the dream doesn't work.
Speaker 2:So when someone takes the time to email me, um, about a potential date, or you know, like I say, when I got booked for puerto rico that came up through social media, uh, you know, I've had a few, quite a lot of bookings this week, um, for next year, and they all came through email. So I always like to just take the time to email back personally and not just, you know, copy and paste something in, because, assuming I'm such a busy hairdresser, that's not. I'm not never going to be too busy to to be personal. This is personal, you know. It's not transactional, it is emotional. You're, you're wanting to have some education, you want a specific result, and then your team will want individual results and I accept the responsibility of helping you achieve those. You know that's the general gist absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, man, if I was a student, I mean, I'm always a student, student for life, that's definitely a motto.
Speaker 1:But if I was a student like or or a cutter, I would love to take your class and I would love to sit through one of your classes anyway, because I just love education, I love to learn, um, and it's been an absolute pleasure having you here today. We have so many similarities. I really hope we cross paths soon in person. And if you're anywhere near san diego or la, you got to come to san diego, you got to come into the studio, you got to say hi, we got to connect at some point, actually next year.
Speaker 2:I'm in san diego fantastic.
Speaker 1:Just give me the dates. We'll, we'll shoot something, we'll record something awesome together. Uh and uh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Man, I just had a blast today had a blast well, thank you so much. How can and how can people?
Speaker 1:that's all right. That's all right. Um, if somebody's listening to this and they're just like dude, I got to get some more ben brown. Where can they go to your website, to your socials? What's the best way to connect with you?
Speaker 2:I'd say the best place is instagram. That's probably where I'm most active, I'd say, and that's just at Ben Brown hair. I would say you're welcome to email me at any time. Uh, you can drop me a DM on. I always answer every DM, always. So if you drop me a DM, as long as I can, you know, as long as it's not a an outright sales pitch, uh, you know, like I don't mean from the, but sometimes it's someone trying to sell me some scissors from the other side of the world or something. But absolutely I love it when someone takes the time to message. So, yeah, that's the best way to contact me, instagram.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you guys for listening today. I hope you got a lot out of this conversation as much as I did. So thank you again, Ben, and we'll chat soon.
Speaker 2:Ryan, it was great Thanks for having me have.
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